Can You Imagine?

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Khalifornian	Can You Imagine?	Lead	[-]
Posts: 896 (01/09/09 11:54 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Tags : None Just Imagine Morocco and Algeria have been united since 1975. Imagine you get on a freeway in Boujdour and drive to Annaba and on to Tunis, non-stop. Imagine the billions and even trillions lost and still to be lost just beween Morocco and Algeria. Imagine there are no borders between Morocco and Algeria, just as there is no borders between France and Germany, in the administrative sense. Imagine no more futile and destructive dreams about evicting the arabs from north Africa. Imagine the governments of Morocco and Algeria working together like the governments of California and Arizona. Imagine Iraq and Iran and Kuwait have done the same since 1975. Can you Imagine? For a real nice presentation, please see this video from Dr Idrissi Bouzidi: go to google, then click on Video, then type Sahara Marocain or Sahara marocain 2. It has two parts 1 and 2. A great case study about how the Moroccan Sahara is a classic example of the wast keeping the arabs (and the Amazighs, because the west considers both to be the same) under the boot. The unchallenged slaughter of palestinians is the resulting success of the divide and conquer "haute strategie". Please see the video. IT'S GREAT!!! Take care mekki
moroccan		#1	[-]
Posts: 882 (01/09/09 12:35 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	It is a far away dream. I doubt it will happen in my natural life. You know why and I know why. <<كما تولوا يولى عليكم.>> Your leaders are the image of how you turned out to be. Morocco and most north African countries are already sold to the highest bidder, and there will be no returning point to what has already started. Sorry, if i sounded a bit pessimist, but that's the reality of things. There is a good explanation to all what's happening in our world, if some of you can find a book called: Confessions of an economic Hit Man (by John Perkins) by the way the guy is living his life in fear to be killed by the CIA/ FBI. Cheers.
Khalifornian	I agree	#2	[-]
Posts: 897 (01/09/09 3:06 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Si Jawad, Salam brother man. Thank you for your response. How is it going dear friend? how is the family? I wish you and all the members of your family a great 2009. Now consider this, for some reason, your success must negatively impact mine and vice versa. For me to be successful, you must NOT succeed. Inversely, the ONLY way for you to prosper is if I am reduced to nothing. In fact, I think I can't stand looking at your name and I know you feel the same about me. Your name must not be prominent or acquire any sort of prominence. I also know that the moment I open my mouth and try to add my voice in an attempt to stand out, you become bothered and you do everything in your power to destroy me. For that, my "beloved" sir, I hate your guts and you hate mine. The result of all these is that neither you nor me will ever arrive at any meaningful personal progress. Since both of us are weak, both us are minor yet major contributors to the decline of our community. Remember, since both of us are Arabs, Muslims, Moroccans, we belong to the same community, and thus, we're weakning it. The question then becomes: why do we put each other down so much that we become so weak, thinking that we're actually strong. So, on the micro level which is you and me, things do not look good. I might have the house, the car, the job and the money, as a community member, I (and you too btw) am exteremly impoverished. This is another dimension from which one can look at things, in addition to the mediocre leadership of our community that you address in you response. Have a nice day mekki PS. I intentionally used both of us as an example to dramatize the interactions between arabs and muslims at the very basic level. Whereas the Jews do not have this phenomenon.
Female		#3	[-]
Posts: 1090 (01/10/09 7:31 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Mekki, There is one thing we should not loose and that is Hope for the world you are imagining I agree that both, community and the leaders, have to contribute to a better world, although i think each on their own level. Members of a community have to build a better understanding within the community, leaders have to build a better understanding on a broader level with other countries. Putting eachother down is not only applicable to the moroccan/arabic/muslim community... it is human and is something you can find in all parts of the world, within the same community, within the same family. It is something natural: fittest will survive. That's why a community or a family needs a leader (a shepard) to herd the mass towards equilibrium and in order to prevent chaos among the community members. If there is chaos in your own family, you will not be able to build up a good relationship with other people outside your family: 1. your family will hate you for being good friends with others while they're left in chaos and 2. your so-called friends will not trust you cause if you're not doing any good to your own family, what does that say about you as a person and about your friendship? It is the same with the leaders of a country: if they're not leading their own community towards prosperity and wellbeing, they'll not be able to build up trust with other leaders and their commuties. Leaders need to stimulate and motivate their own people towards wellfare and peace first before they can work towards peace on a broader level. ps: there is only one Jewish country, that's why they seem not to be in conflict with other jewish countries but they do have conflicts within their own community such as the conflicts between arabs and non-arab jews, orthodox and liberal jews, etc.
Khalifornian		#4	[-]
Posts: 899 (01/10/09 10:53 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Female, Thanks for writing, and btw, happy new year and it's always a pleasure chatting with you. I know I told you before, you always gives me my money's worth. And this time is no exception. Anyway, I agree with you fully. It's impossible that even a family can go on without any disputes of some sorts. There is even a moroccan proverb that says:" lee rba7 gheer mashafoosh khooh" = "if someone has won, that means his brother has not seen him" (otherwise his brother would prevent him from winning). The disputes that you're refering to are normal when folks interact with each other, family business, relationships etc... But my question is why someone whith whom you have absolutely no relationship becomes your bitter ennemy just for the heck of it? simply because you're trying to move ahead. And that is a phenomenon verry typical of moroccans, muslims and arabs. I understand your point. In fact let me give you an example. Take Microsoft and Google for example. Both are extereme rivals of each other and both are headed by Jewish guys: Microsoft's Steve Ballmer and Google's Brin and Page. The two companies are out to put each other out of business, Jewish or not. In that case, yes, your analysis applies, because either company is fending for itself and trying to earn a living. Instead, I am talking about two companies that do not compete against each other, and yet their jewish leaders, for no reason at all, despise each other, simply because both companies are successful in their respective fields. If you could find me an example in the west or in Israel that behave this way, then I suppose I am wrong in my assessment. I could not find you an example in our world simply because I am not familiar with the movers and shakers of Morocco or other arab or muslim countries. However, the mindset is there: People are out to destroy you even if you have no direct interaction or contact with them. Just so you get out of the radar screen. As in anything I say, I could be dead wrong of course. Now back to the Sahara issue, here is a quote I got today from Liberte-Algerie newspaper: "Fidéle a ses positions de soutiens aux peuples qui revendiquent leurs indépendance , les Algériens de tout bords sont sortis hier dans la rue pour dénoncer le massacre perpétré par Israél contre la Paléstine. Malheureusement , Les apprentis sorcier de la politique sont venus en trouble fête perturber un geste de solidarité loin de toute connotation." It never occurs to the Algerians that Morocco was not just revendicating its independence, but it was revendicating it from two European occupiers. It never occurs to them that while they're supporting the independence of 5-6 millions Palestinians, they directly participate in preventing some 45 million Moroccans from finally celebrating independence of Morocco's souther region. It never occurs to the Algerians that they are the ONLY Muslim country that sided with Spain and against Morocco over the Leila Rock, 100 meter from Morocco's shores few years ago. If you extrapolate all these things, you could see why Israel is tonight telling Gazans to "brace for more war" without anyone challenging them. Thanks and have a great day. mekki
moroccan		#5	[-]
Posts: 883 (01/11/09 11:44 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	I'm enjoying what I'm reading. Can't reply freely. I'm still on the road. LTR.
Female		#6	[-]
Posts: 1091 (01/12/09 5:34 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Hi Mekki, Mistery guy or not (you're a scorpio for something, hein?), i always admired the way you're interacting in a virtual discussion: straightforward without holding back your own opinion whether it's politic correct or not but always in a very polite way. I usually agree on some of your points but as you should know me by know i always pick out those points i'm doubting ... just for the challenge to see if you'll come up with a more satisfying reply . Now, i don't know what to say about your remarks as i don't know much about politics, and especially the WS issue. So, allow me to freewheel. My first reaction is that you're right about the contradiction of Algeria, although i wonder if the ordinary people have something to do with the conflict between Morocco and Algeria. I suppose it were the ordinary algerians who showed their support to the palestinians? In Brussels, some jews marched along with muslims to support the palestinians. So, here were are back to the leaders who're not able to solve their internal conflicts which affects their neighboured countries. If we look around to countries were conflicts within the country and with other countries prevail, we notice that those countries have no economic balance. Let's take Belgium for instance, we had known solidarity between two communities at a moment of economic growth in the sixties/seventies and even eighties. Once the economy was going down, we took some small mesures to split solidarity and finally now with the economic crisis communities (or let's say the leaders) think of their own well-being which of course ends up in conflict. As we all are human beings, it's rational that we think first to our own wellbeing followed by the wellbeing of our family, community, country, race, etc. There is no solidarity with other as long as we don't see any advantage (cause we want something in return: psychologically, materially, strategically, etc). Maybe i'm wrong but i wonder if the Emirates, Qatar and Dubai have conflicts in and out their own borders... Greetings
moroccan	pleased to hear from you all	#7	[-]
Posts: 884 (01/13/09 1:14 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Dear mekki: All is well, thank you. Sorry if took me few days to get back to you guys. It's life as usual. In your first reply, you mentioned that ones success must negatively impact others. It is true if we speak from a purely Capitalistic mind. As you might know, it is one of the major reasons the gap between the rich and the poor is widening in America and other parts of the world who believe in this same theory. But when it comes to Politics, the world has become a huge Governmental Corporate in which most of our leaders are elected as simple employees to the major Capitalist forces. Those same forces who were called just last century as Imperialist forces. What I'm trying to say is that when we speak about two nations in conflict like morocco and Algeria, we have to make a difference between the Government and its people. I am sure, the people form both sides have a bigger dream like yours, but there are bigger forces who will never let it be achieved. Why? you may ask. simply cause Domocracy is bad for business. Democracy can expose the tales of international intrigue, corruption, and the government / corporate activities. Sorry, Mekki: I still can not imagine that there will be no borders between Morocco and Algeria. When the few Algerian Generals stop mangling with Algerian Politic and economy, when the Moroccan authorities stop prosecuting its people for speaking their mind, maybe, there will be a chance for a dream. But for now, I am convinced that the complexity of our Political and economic world will not allow even a thought of having that hope. Either we accept it or not, sooner we all have to live by a new motto "everyone for his own" it goes for both our governments and our People. And we are asking why Gaza is standing all alone? Cheers.
Khalifornian	Humm	#8	[-]
Posts: 900 (01/14/09 10:28 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Dear Female and Dear Jawad, mistery guy, hein? hummm!!! I never thought about it that way. If we always agreed with each other, this board would be boring. At the same time, if we never agreed with each other and are uncapable of tolerating the other, then this board would be like a bordel, sort of a morocco.com, quantity and no quality. Ther intellectual energy generated from the few of us left on this board can sometimes be challenging, to say the least. Back to the issue at hand, I guess I am trying to say that what is happening in Gaza is a failure of the arabs and muslims. Now, I think we differ on how that failure came to be and what to do so not to remain a failure. Si Jawad, I understand the impossible task of trying to change the big picture, the big game so to speak. I am fully aware of the dynamics at play that are against arabs and muslims. Here is another movement that is taking place in Morocco, as a part of the concerted big game. Unfortunately many moroccans are falling for it. It had been tried before and did not succeed and it is now being tried and marketed but under a different packaging, a more attractive packaging, attractive because it caters to the needs to its targetted demographics: Are you ready Female: The Amazigh Movement. Now don't get me wrong: I am for Amazigh rights 100 %. In fact I consider the Amazigh culture to be absolutely necessary for the continuity of Morocco: language, music, traditions everything. We must support the Amazigh culture and I think our government is not doing enough. However, outside forces are taking advantage of this and force the Amazigh sons and daughters of Morocco to turn their backs and even blame their arab brothers: therein lies the danger. This is a typical example of the divide and conquer stategy deployed against us. The french have tried it in the 30s in a more direct way but it failed. This time, both the content and the form have changed in order to create more appeal and hence ensure success. So watch out for this one. Similarly, many Moroccans (Arabs) of Sahraoui origin have turned their back on the country altogether and on their Moroccan brothers and have decided they want a republic of their own. Al Mowahideen are probably rolling in their graves. None of this would occur if outside forces were not at play. Thank you my friends and have a nice day mekki
moroccan	right on	#9	[-]
Posts: 885 (01/14/09 12:39 PM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Si Mekki: I am still learning from you how to be more diplomatic in most my replies. But I guess it takes a little of each to make our world very interesting place to live, doesn't it? To be honest, we don't really differ in the main reasons of the problem more on how to fix it. What's happening in Morocco and most of the third world countries is simply because of that deficiency or absence of guidance, either by the families or their government. It's because of that vacuum created by the new world progress which turned us to be excessively obsessed by ourselves to the point where we forgot our duties towards our families and kids, and surely that gap had to be filled by something. It could be anything from drugs to new ideologies, or even new religion (see spread of Shiite sect and Christianity in Morocco, recently). As for our governments, they are busy following orders, sealing deals and doing business as usual. In Morocco for instance, and instead of standardizing a concrete educational and social programs (with one main language) to help this lost generation and the one to come, the government simply pretends that all is well. And the result? 1/3 of the country speaks French, 1/3 Spanish and the other 1/3 is illiterate. All governments energy is targeting one new enemy: Terrorism. all the rest may go to hell. ... I just don't want to elaborate in this issue. All in all, and i am afraid to say this: the situation will remain in a "status quo" , and that includes the Moroccan Sahara. To be continued.
Female	we agree...	#10	[-]
Posts: 1092 (01/15/09 10:57 AM) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite	Hi scorpio and leo, I think our astrologic signs have something to do with the 'peacefull' way we interact with eachother... cause we share a lot of similar caracteristics? Ahum, je suis la sorcière... We basically agree with eachother that there is a problem among arabs and muslims that must be solved... however, we each have our own theory about what's wrong and how to cure the illness. The thing that comes in my mind right now is: if we refer to arabs and muslims as being part of a problem, does that mean that we're putting our own kind down? Does that mean that we're trying to define a problem that we have created in our minds? Or does that simply mean that we compare the west with the communities we originally belong to? Personally, the last question is at hand. Next question pops up in my mind: why should i compare my actual place of living with the one i rooted from? These places are totally different and unique in their own being, they both have their good and bad. Why am i focusing on the bad parts? If I keep focussing on the negative issues, and if everyone around me does the same, we'll never move forward as a person nor as a community cause we keep ourselves in the circle of negativity...we don't push ourselves nor anyone else to take a step forward. Than one day, we realise we're still in the same spot, nothing changed cause we didn't do anything but looking at eachother's mistakes, we end up victimising ourselves and blaming others for putting us in this position while forgetting that we didn't do anything to make things better ourselves. To me, that's the same that's happening among our arab and muslim community around the world (not only those who're living in the countries at hand). We have this unique attitude to blame others for our own mistakes, even the moroccan minister of emigrant affaires said last month in a belgian conference that the problem of the 'exile' of moroccans to europe has everything to do with globalisation, thus denying that it's a moroccan problem of poverty and injustice. I can't blame our ministers for thinking this way, they prolly never experienced poverty nor injustice in their entire lives cause they're descendants of the elite. As to the Amazigh issue, I do not agree that they should claim their own republic but it's positive that they remind the moroccan government that they're still part of the country, thus also need attention and support from the government and include them in all possible projects that could favor them. Let's stay in the Family Sphere: let's say you have three sons: ali, ahmed and a'mar. If you only pay attention and support to ali and ahmed, how will a'mar turn out to be when he grows up? You only consider your son as a'mar under your name and as a help to the family. Now A'mar himself can react on different ways: A. He'll try to turn his back to dad cause as dad don't pay attention to him (or didn't pay attention: the past experiences are still in his mind), he doesn't feel like he's part of the family nor that he needs to pay back the good did to him (even if dad did little good), he will blame ali and ahmed for 'stealing' all attention of their dad. If he has a friend with bad influence, the friend will tell him he'll better break with his family so that the so-called friend will have all attention of a'mar. Finally, a'mar separates from his family and builds up his own life without any bound to his family. He will however share the same ground and that's his mom. However, a'mar will find out that his friend is selfish, he'll try to break up with his friend, etc etc and the conflict within a'mar and with those around him will continue. B. He could grow wiser from his own experiences. He could try to talk into dad, telling him how he feels about the lack of attention and support, try to make dad understand. Even if dad does not change his attitude, a'mar's words are planted in dad's mind. Dad might regret and try to make things better. A'mar could forgive his dad, he could try to live with the past, start up his own family and try not to make the same mistake as his dad. I know it all sounds simple and childish, but who said simple is easy? Take care you guys

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